Am I faster than I think I am?
I was taking a diet coke break (a habit I’d love to kick for good one of these days), thinking about running, and realized that only one month ago I was running around the same pace for my 400m track repeats - and I put more effort into those than I did for today’s 700m road runs. That’s really fun to see. Interestingly enough, if I figure that I could run at that pace for a series of track 800s (fairly realistic), the Yasso rule of thumb says that my speed is good for a 3:36 marathon right now.
Wow.
That doesn’t seem right somehow, since that’s an 8:15 pace and I’m not used to going that fast for the long haul. Still, if I got my endurance back up to where it needs to be, I could actually see doing it. And the longer I think about it, the more attainable it seems. Mind-blowing.
And yet, when I run with my training group, I still feel pretty slow - or if not slow, at least that I still have so far to go to realize my potential. And from googling, it looks like the 800s are a pretty well tested reasonably accurate predictor. In fact, those times are with much longer recoveries than I’m used to. I know that I could run a bunch of 3:30 repeats if I was warmed up but rested before hand, and could take three minutes for recovery between them.
This could also explain why my 5K PR was set during a race that disappointed so many people. I’ve talked to more than a few folk who were 90 seconds or more slower than their expected time due to the brutal wind on the second half. And yet, I was able to PR significantly over the same course. Makes me wonder what I could have done in better weather…
Are what I though were my currently optimistic goals set too low?
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Jun 3rd 2004
8:00 PM
Richard, I think the short answer is “maybe”…
I’ve employed yasoo’s in training and found them to be excellent training tools. I’m not sure how accurate they are in terms of race prediction but I SUSPECT the shorter rest (i.e. light jog) in between 800’s, the more predictive they are.
The furthest I’ve taken yasoo’s is 10 at 3:15 with about a 2.5 minute jog between each (Aaron took a 2 minute jog). According to the guideline, I was capable of a 3:15 marathon and the rest I was using was shorter/better(?) than advised for them to be a good marathon predictor.
On the other hand, I know a runner who does altered yasoo’s where she runs up to 10 at 3 minutes with a 30 SECOND walk break and she ran a 2:59 marathon in the Austin Motorola marathon this past year. I talked to her and her coach and they both believe that once you can run 10 at your pace, you need to reduce the rest period between and THAT is the key to success.
Having said all this (sorry to blabber), this can come down to things outside the workout. In my mind, the greatest question might be; What is your genetic ability/potential? You and I have discussed potential previously so there is a LOT of room for analysis here! How I think this factors in is that some people are better genetically at different distances so, I might be a better 800 meter runner than I am a distance runner and that might be why my marathon PR is a 4:42 - so far!
You on the other hand may be a better runner at longer distances!
At any rate, you should go for it Richard. Push the limits and see where it takes you. I’ll be cheering for you - if not at the finish line, at least from across the border!
Jun 3rd 2004
8:15 PM
I love listening to the fast guys talk about advanced training. I think I need another book to read.
Jun 3rd 2004
8:49 PM
I love when people think I’m a fast runner - makes me giggle like a school girl!
It’s all relative Jon. I’m very very slow compared to lots of runner! It’s part of what makes running so awesome - there are always people to look up to and learn from!
Jun 4th 2004
10:21 AM
Here, giggle some more. I think you are fast. Happy training.
Jun 4th 2004
10:38 AM
Mark - have you tried training seriously to run a 3:30 marathon? From your PR time I’m guessing that you don’t do the long runs very fast, but what if you started out from scratch (ie a USAFit type schedule) building up the distance but doing it with a goal of an 8:00 pace? After all, you just did five miles faster than that, so you’ve got the speed, you just need the endurance. You could probably do it with a traditional four month leadup actually.
I do believe that people have genetic limitations - however, I think that they only come into play when we approach “elite” status. And since we’re talking about running over an hour slower than the elites do, I don’t think that 3:30 is close to the point where genetic limitations really have a strong influence. That’s just my opinion, of course.
On the one hand, its counterintuitive to try to speed up by over an hour so quickly. On the other hand, everything I’ve read and everyone I’ve talked to lead me to believe that you’re more than fast enough to do a 3:30 marathon right now (with endurance training) from your current performances. Why hold back?
Jun 4th 2004
1:34 PM
Richard,
I guess what may have held me back in the PAST was simply well, the PAST. My first marathon was a 3:57. It went very well other than an IT blowing out with 10k to go and having to run/walk that last section. The second marathon was run in extreme heat so the time goal went out the window. The third, I made some mistakes and came in 3 seconds better than the first. The fourth, my buddy and I made a really dumb, newbie mistake of going out too fast. I was also improperly fueled and paid the consequences. Aaron and I trained at at 3:30 pace but ran for a 3:45 marathon in both the fourth and fifth marathons thinking training at a higher level would “guarantee” at least a 3:45. The strategy worked (finally) in the fifth marathon (3:42) so now my focus has shifted toward a 3:30 marathon over the next two years which I think is very do-able but what I’m getting from you is I could get that 3:30 in less time.
hmmm…I went to the website you mentioned but was unable to find a training plan. Do you have to be a member and/or pay a fee? Would you be able to share some details about their approach to training?
Thanks!
Jun 4th 2004
1:48 PM
I don’t think I answered one of your questions.
We do our long slow distance runs at about 1 minute under a 3:30 race pace and we always throw about 2 or 3 km in the later part at race pace.
We have a race calculator on our website here:
http://www.completerunning.com/running/raceconversion.html
According to the calculator, I am good for a 3:32 marathon.
hmmm…always interesting talking with you Richard!
Jun 4th 2004
3:20 PM
Heh - I think I misunderstood a previous example sentence of yours as being a directly related one - you mentioned earlier, “I might be a better 800 meter runner than I am a distance runner and that might be why my marathon PR is a 4:42 - so far!” My comments were in relation to your other posted times against that 4:42 time. Seeing that you’ve done a 3:42 makes a whole lot more sense. I was figuring that you were just running oddly slowly at the longer distances for some unknown reason. I’m betting that it was a typo :-)
I wouldn’t bother with the USAFit schedules (find them on the individual member sites like AustinFIT or SeattleFIT, etc) in that case, since you’re obviously a more experienced marathoner. I’m now leaning towards Higdon’s Advanced II one for the fall, probably swapping the Saturday/Sunday runs around, mainly because it hits my mileage targets well and already has speedwork on Tuesdays and Thursdays, which I intend to continue doing.
Jun 4th 2004
3:24 PM
ooops!! ya, just a one hour typo ;) !
I still think what you say about potential has trememdous merit Richard. You’ve made me think a great deal about my PERCEPTIONS of what I’ve done versus what COULD be done.
Many thanks!
Jun 4th 2004
3:25 PM
BTW - your race calculator equation is incorrect (on the webpage). It should read “t2 = t1 * (d2 / d1) ^ 1.06″ not “… ^ 1.0″.
Jun 4th 2004
3:26 PM
And hey, you’re welcome. Believe me, the only reason that I’m here and speeding up is because I’ve had my perceptions challenged - sucessfully. You may not be able to live up to your expectations, but you will almost always live down to them.
Jun 4th 2004
3:28 PM
Brilliant perspective and THANKS for the correction - I’ll fix that when I get home!